1. Is Ocean Online Casino Blackjack Continuously Shuffled

Ocean Casino Resort (formerly Revel Casino Hotel Atlantic City) is a resort, hotel and casino in Atlantic City, New Jersey, United States.It is the northernmost casino on the Atlantic City Boardwalk, located on 20 acres (8.1 ha) of land, adjacent to the Showboat Hotel.Revel opened on April 2, 2012, and after declaring Chapter 11 bankruptcy for the second time, closed on September 2, 2014. The New Ocean Resort Casino; If this is your first visit to the Blackjack Forum, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You will have to r e g i s t e r (free) before you can post: click the r e g i s t e r link to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to.

I’m getting more questions from blackjack players about continuous shufflers now that they are being used in more casinos. What players want to know is if the odds are better or worse withHenry Tamburin is the editor and publisher of the Blackjack Insider Newsletter and author of the best-selling Blackjack: Take the Money & Run. He is also the lead Instructor for the Golden Touch Blackjack course, a feature writer for Casino Player magazine (and 6 other publications); an owner of a casino gambling publishing company (www.rsucasinobooks.com) and the host of www.smartgaming.com. For a free three month subscription to the Henry's Blackjack Insider Newsletter with full membership privileges go to www.bjinsider.com/free. Henry's website is www.smartgaming.com
ShuffleMaster is a leader in production of continuous card shufflers like the one pictured here. a continuous shuffling machine (CSM).

First, let’s make sure you understand what a CSM is because players often confuse them with automatic shufflers. The latter have been around a long time in casinos.

Usually a casino will use two sets of multiple decks of cards on a blackjack table.

While one set of cards are used to play the game the other set is being shuffled offline by the automatic shuffler. When the cut card appears, the round is completed and then the dealer will swap the cards-the just used multi-decks will be placed in the automatic shuffler to be shuffled while the shuffled decks that were in the machine are put into play. The purpose of the automatic shuffler is to eliminate the wasted time involved in having the dealer manually shuffle the cards (from the casinos perspective, time is money, so their hourly profit goes up when they eliminate the wasted time in manually shuffling the cards).

The odds against the player in blackjack do not change when an automatic shuffler is used on the table to shuffle the multi-decks of cards. If the casino were using 6 decks of cards, they will usually deal 4.0-4.5 decks and then place the entire 6-decks into the automatic shuffler for shuffling while continue to play with the second set of freshly shuffled 6-decks of cards. With an automatic shuffler, about 70-75% of the cards are dealt out before the cards are reshuffled. This is an important point to remember.

The CSM was invented primarily to discourage card counting at blackjack. But it also has a negative effect over average players as you will soon see.

A CSM is a combination automatic shuffler and dealing shoe. Casinos usually place 5 decks of cards into the CSM. After a betting round is completed, the dealer will scoop up the just played cards (discards) and instead of placing them into a discard tray will insert the cards back into the CSM for shuffling with the remaining 4.5 or so decks of cards. (Some casinos will place the discards from several rounds into a small discard tray and then scoop up the deck or so of discards and place them back into the CSM).

Do you understand the difference between a CSM and automatic shuffler? With the latter most of the cards are played (ca. 70%) before the discards and unplayed cards are reshuffled. With a CSM, the discards are immediately returned to the shuffler to be randomly mixed with the unplayed card. . It’s possible that a specific card from the round just played might wind up being dealt in the next round.

So do the odds change when a CSM is used? The answer is yes, they change very slightly in favor of the player with the house edge against a basic strategy player in a typical 6-deck game reduced by about 0.1%.

The reason the CSM causes the house edge to go down ever so slightly is because of a phenomena known as the “cut card effect” (this increases the probability slightly of getting tens and blackjack when a CSM is used).

Now before you rush out and play blackjack on a table that uses a CSM, listen to the rest of the story. Even though the house edge goes down slightly with a CSM, this is more than negated by the increased speed of the game. Remember with a CSM dealt game there is never any down for shuffling cards. So on average the casino can deal about an extra round or two per hour resulting in about 20% more hands played per hour with a CSM and because they have the edge against the vast majority of players who play blackjack their hourly revenue goes up by 20%. From the player’s perspective, you will lose 20% faster on average playing against a CSM dealt game compared to a game dealt manually or with an automatic shuffler.

Casinos love to spin the tale that the reason they use a CSM is to foil card counters.

Yet you will rarely see a CSM used at high limit tables where most of the pro card counters would play. The reason is that most high rollers who know nothing of card counting are suspicious of the CSM and they insist that blackjack should be played the old fashion way or they will take their business elsewhere.

So in most casinos you will find CSM’s on the main casino floor where the table minimums are lower. It’s here on the $5 and $10 tables where the casino grinds out it’s 20% more revenue per hour against average low stakes players.

Casinos also like CSM’s because it allows them to always have the edge just like they enjoy with all their games. By using a CSM, blackjack becomes virtually unbeatable much like roulette, baccarat, Three Card Poker and other table games.

CSM’s are not cheap. Casinos coast to coast have been testing them for the past several years. In some casinos the devices were removed because of player complaints or because the extra revenue didn’t justify the extra cost of these devices. Nevertheless, casinos keep putting CSM on their tables in the hopes that the playing public will get accustomed to them.

My advice is to stay away from any blackjack table that uses a CSM. If more players do this casinos will reluctantly have to remove the machines and return to the more player friendly automatic shufflers (or manual shuffles). Blackjack is tough enough to beat without introducing devices that cause average player’s to lose more quickly.

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I have made my last trip to Winstar Casino in Thackerville in Oklahoma. I have played blackjack for 30 years all over the country, but never at the Indian Casinos. I have won and lost, and admit to being somewhat of a sore loser. I have come to the conclusion you simply cannot win there. When I sit at a table, eventually everybody ends up disgusted from losing over and over and leave. It seems like know one wins. I wander if there are any former pit bosses from Vegas that work there and through their years of experience can see that something is just not right. It is uncanny how many blackjacks, aces up in a row that the dealers get. They crack me up when they put on what seems to be an act that they are so suprised by all their blackjacks, standing 20's, and hitting and not busting. I wish I had kept statistics on the percentage of hands I win. What I am sure of is that I can play 75-150 hands and maybe win three hands in a row during that stretch of playing. I can play 50 hands and never see a two-card 20 until the dealer has the samething. It does not matter if I am playing at a table with six decks or tables where they re-shuffle once they get through about two decks.
I cannnot go there and even play a leisurely game at the $5.00 minimum table. We just seem to lose and lose and lose. I want to repeat that I am a very experienced player, aware of bad streaks and the possibility of losing 10,15 or more hands in a row. But this is rediculous. I wrote the gaming commission, but I am already aware of the setup in Oklahoma and know it will fall upon deaf ears.
Could the machines be set up where once 'card-rich' hands that lean towards the house began to be shuffled into the machines in away that really increase the houses chance of winning. I play almost 99% by the mathmatics of the game.
i truly believe that one day it will be proven that somehow those shuffling machines are rigged.
Not one more .50 cent ante from me. I am done.

The machines can be programmed for different games. That's enough to keep me away. Why risk it'

The notion that for a blackjack game to be rigged by the order of the cards is not as ridiculous as someone might think. And I'll explain why:
If you notice, the casinos that are the hardest to beat are the ones that makes sure the tables are full all the time, even if they have to close as many tables as possible to make that happen they will. The theory in this is that the more people playing then more hands are in play for the house which means the more money. But with an auto shuffler, this would make sure that if cards of similar values (highs and lows) are grouped tighter together, then they would produce more stiff hands across the table. Remember, it doesn't matter if the dealer gets a bad hand as long as the players get them also, it's still in his advantage. with a full table it is easier to create bad hands by clumping more cards together, and I'm not talking just highs and lows, add the neutrals in the mix. And you think well, that means I have an idea of what card I might get? No, you don't, that's the beauty of it.
So lets see what happens if a new shoe comes out, is cut and then 5 of the six people get up and leave only one to play. Again it doesn't matter, because you're at no advantage to the dealer with a pretty even count all the way through.
My solution is for everyone to just refuse to play anything but a hand shuffled shoe. Even if it means going elsewhere to play. That way, we all know what we are presented with.

Those are just a few excerpts from the most informative post that I have ever read.
It very much describes my recent stiff hand marathon experience at two AZ casinos.
In both casinos the cards were only auto shuffled.
Never again.

I don't think dealers properly shuffle the cards, especially in poker games

Game protection seems to be weak for live poker. You can see many cards being flashed before a shuffle and during the game. Could be huge if you know a Queen is on the bottom of the deck.

I'm sure most of you guys know this but the shuffle machines have been 'tracked' successfully (even thought he algorythms have since been fixed) AND shuffling machines can be counted.
It is not a very high +EV game. There are two large advantages though.....
1) Nobody will question you if you spread 20 units or larger as 'it is a shuffle machine, nobody can beat it'
2) The technique is not very well proven but it is incredibly easy.
I don't think you could make a living from it but you could enjoy a few hands and spread your bets without worrying about heat?
I'm not sure if this is reallyw aht this thread is about, I just thought I would give my penny's worth :)

You are confusing CSM with ASM.
CSM: Continuous Shuffling Machine. Continuously shuffles the cards as they are played, yielding a game that is impossible (or highly unprofitable) to count, since it's effectively a game with half a deck or so penetration (depending on how long the dealer lets the discards pile up).
ASM: Automatic Shuffling Machine. Automates the process of shuffling a full 6-deck shoe (or 4-deck, or 2-deck, or whatever). Resultant shuffled cards are placed into the shoe and dealt like normal, to a preset cut card. Just as countable as a traditional hand-shuffled game, but not shuffle-trackable for the 'advanced' APs.
Most of this thread is about ASMs and the possibility that they are 'stacking' the deck in favor of the house via any number of nefarious, and yet unproven schemes.

I worked at shufflemaster for several years. The shufflers are not nor can they be rigged. I had all of the internal passwords to set up the software, firmware, etc. and there is nothing there that can be altered to gain advantage either way. They are exactly as u see them.

I haven't run all the way back through the thread, but it's one that has interested me before, and I thought this was worth bringing forward. It was posted more than 2 years ago.

I haven't run all the way back through the thread, but it's one that has interested me before, and I thought this was worth bringing forward. It was posted more than 2 years ago.

Is Ocean Online Casino Blackjack Continuously Shuffled

No. It's a paranoid myth that causes casinos to have to offer shoe games to customers who do not trust machines. So casinos can't get rid of the counters because these paranoid people draw conclusions with no reason, yet casinos will not educate the public cuz they don't want a bunch of professors at the gambling table. Machines are sometimes preceived as rigged because there is no manual shuffling; therefore, people lose X dollars in less time at a machine than at a shoe game.

No. It's a paranoid myth that causes casinos to have to offer shoe games to customers who do not trust machines. So casinos can't get rid of the counters because these paranoid people draw conclusions with no reason, yet casinos will not educate the public cuz they don't want a bunch of professors at the gambling table. Machines are sometimes preceived as rigged because there is no manual shuffling; therefore, people lose X dollars in less time at a machine than at a shoe game.

I'm not sure that you and I are talking about the same thing. In reference to whether the SHFL machines sort hands to benefit the house (the OP), and only on that question, someone with a fair amount of knowledge weighed in. I, perhaps in error, did not read the entire thread before bringing this information forward, which is why I made the comment I did. No other reference to where it has gone in the present is intended.
Now having read the entire thread, I think it is pertinent to the discussion still, but you appear to be addressing a different point of that same discussion.

You are confusing CSM with ASM.
CSM: Continuous Shuffling Machine. Continuously shuffles the cards as they are played, yielding a game that is impossible (or highly unprofitable) to count, since it's effectively a game with half a deck or so penetration (depending on how long the dealer lets the discards pile up).
ASM: Automatic Shuffling Machine. Automates the process of shuffling a full 6-deck shoe (or 4-deck, or 2-deck, or whatever). Resultant shuffled cards are placed into the shoe and dealt like normal, to a preset cut card. Just as countable as a traditional hand-shuffled game, but not shuffle-trackable for the 'advanced' APs.
Most of this thread is about ASMs and the possibility that they are 'stacking' the deck in favor of the house via any number of nefarious, and yet unproven schemes.

I am most certainly not cunfusing the two, in fact I know both very, very well.
There was a case a few years back in Macau where a gentleman of South African decent (I believe he was a musician) managed to track how the cards would come out in a CSM (Continuous shuffling machine) by listening to the machines internal workings. He apparetnly practiced at home (he had one) for a while and managed to find out how the sequencing of cards went with that particular brand of CSM. He figured out that, due to a defect with the algorythms of the shuffle machine, the same two cards always preceeded the dealing of an ACE. He sat in first base and when he knew the first card dealt would be an ACE he would increase his bet. Obviously this gives him a substantial advantage over the game.
He was caught but he didn't cheat, he was simply a skilled AP.
SHFL has in the interim recalled those shufflers and fixed the faulty algorythm.
Also CSM's can be counted too.............
In closing I know what an ASM is as well, they save the casino on time and motion issues but i have never seen one shuffle in a way that would stack the deck either for the house or against the house, then again I have not yet investigated all brands and all types.
I do have a little bit of experience in this field you know :)